Officially, this is the most commented post on this blog so far. With this comment of mine, a post touches the 30 comments milestone. Now I know how to get more comments. Write something controversial about women

Btw, that was a very good comment. That innate desire thingy . . .

What is the issue? I’ve been giving it a lot of thought since the onion oothappam (I think). The inevitable question kept popping up in my mind. What is the issue?

Having got that (now inevitable) question out of the way, I think I finally have something to say on this.

I think (now borrowing from Alan Pease) that is is just because men and women are wired differently. If I was to extend your question to all the fields I think the answer would be the same. If you took crime as a ‘field’, you woud find the same result. The reason being just that men and women are wired differently. Given that your post is pure opinon, I think it is also fair to say that you are NOT aware of any women in the top ten of the fields you mentioned. I don’t see that as a absence of women on those fields. It’s just that they are not as visible as men are. In my mind, there is just one reason for this – wiring.

The male machine is wired to be driven on pure testosterone. It makes us do fairly silly things at times. Men have this innate desire to be seen, recognised, accepted, dominant, influential etc.. Very few men pursue things in life pourely from a self actualisation point of view.. Historically you’ll probably find few women who did not.

I was hoping to keep this short and sweet. Unfortunately, I’m not wired that way!

Fantastic comment! It’s very smart to separate creativity and the choice of publicity. One thing about a choice of publicising and the other is going one up in what they do which would naturally some day or the other make them known. If I’m a great painter and even if I’m not keen about making myself known, that is going to come out soon. You simply can’t hide genius.

My point was all about we having to google or to research to get these names. Nevertheless, I get your point. Very interesting comment indeed.

This is the link that talks about top 10 women philosophers
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/ten-great-female-philosophers-the-thinking-womans-women-498733.html

Out of the top of my head here are a few women who are writers from our very own country.
1. Arundhati Roy
2. Sivashankari
3. Anuradha ramanan
4. Shoba de
5. Jhumpa lahiri
6. Vidhya subramanian
7. Sarojini Naidu
8. Anita Desai
9. Sudha murthy
10. Ramanichandran

You say “Philosophers have usually renounced the society and set out to achieve their greatness. Women, on the other hand, have never been allowed to even take decisions for themselves.”

Renunciation does not come by permissions. It makes no difference between a man and a woman. The inner mind has no sex.

And do you know what equates to ‘less pressure to be the breadwinner’?! More pressure to make sure that the ‘breadwinner’s’ life doesn’t get more difficult than it already (apparently) is. She is expected to tend to everything else. This is in respect to India. Philosophers have usually renounced the society and set out to achieve their greatness. Women, on the other hand, have never been allowed to even take decisions for themselves. So, all I would say is, it takes a greater deal of courage to defy the basic institution, if one is a woman. They can’t grow if no one lets them. And, things are changing now. I’m sure you would come across more women creators in times to come.

VJ, I made a list of the top ten famous authors(and I didn’t decide the top 10, I got it from wiki answers) and surprisingly more women figure on the list.

J.K. Rowling – Woman
Harper Lee – Woman
Lemony Snicket
Blue Balliet – Woman
Charles Dickins
Jane Austen – Woman
Carol Matas – Woman
Lois Lowry
Gary Paulson
Jean Creighead George – Woman

And look at the top two spots!

So I guess your data was skewed when you made the post, or your opinion may have been wrong(atleast in the authors category). Not sure of all the other places.
Btw, my opinion is that gender bias exists in India but if you look at the developed nations, most women are at par or even better than their male counterparts.

Btw, good blog. Nice layout, very uncluttered and neat. Nice writing skills as well.
Thank you for adding my blog to your network on indibloggers. I’m glad you did, I got to see yours!

I think your latest comment kinda sums up the whole discussion. I appreciate that you held the women responsible and accountable for the state of affairs. You say that people will talk nonsense about women who want to pursue their dream. I’d say that happens to even men. It’s a problem of the material world. No one want their children to be a painter or a philosopher. They only want doctors and engineers.

I know someone who is a poet who could not pursue that to his satisfaction because he had to work and support his family. He had get his sisters and brothers married and settled. By the time he was freed of all these responsibilities, he was 40. All through this period, he did not stop writing poems. Then, when it became possible, he started spending more time for himself and his poems. He is a renowned poet now. Family burden or constraints are for everyone – be it a man or a woman.

Finally, everything boils down to that creative spark and the urge to pursue one’s passion, not willing to get bogged down anything on earth.

Right now, in my opinion, there are very very few people who have decided to do something in art, music or even philosophy. Because to establish oneself as an artist, designer or musician is very difficult, so even when people(both men and women) have talent, they just dont develop because they want to settle down soon, so they go for science.

VJ,

I just stated the truth. I’m sure Gandhi wouldn’t have achieved anything if he didn’t have any followers, and let’s face it, most people don’t like the idea of a female leader, even women don’t like to have female leaders or bosses. Yeah, women like to be in their comfort zone, because if a woman leaves her family to pursue her dream, people just talk shit about her. Because, as I stated before, men are not brought up to be dependent, women are. They think about their family. What can a woman do if she’s emotionally blackmailed into marriage or something? I’m talking generally, ‘course and there are women who take their own path. Maybe right now, if all women break all the social barriers, they can accomplish something. I really don’t think that this would have been possible in the olden days and I not considering female freedom fighters and suffragettes. Still, there were women who were philoshophers and matematicians.

Do you know Hypatia? She was a teacher of philosophy, mathematics and astronomy during 400 AD. She’s the first notable woman in the field. Of course, she was killed eventually due to various reasons(one because she was a woman). I know that if there were more women in that era who would have come up like Hypatia, she wouldn’t have got killed. But I don’t blame men. I blame patriarchy and women themselves. Most women just want keep themselves suppressed and so they just self-oppress. I will not deny that.

Talking about the born vs made thing, I cannot define psychology, it differs from person to person. Maybe if the genes have more influence, then she might be able to discover her talent. But I always strongly support the concept of behaviorism. It can go wrong, only a few times.

I like your view points. I would like to emphasis that I am certainly not talking for or against any gender! I was expressing only my view point. Certainly opinions differ. There cannot be one single (Stereotype) view point always and that’s the reason we have blogs that are running successfully!

I am not saying creativity or critical thinking are the essence of life. No harm being non creative. No harm being simple! I only expressed my view that in my experience so far I have not seen many women making it to the big stage, in creative fields and there are several ground reasons behind! I did already make an elaborate explanation on the ground reasons!

If I have a choice will I be able to select a creative field for the rest of my life is the discussion all about? That does not mean I must or I am weak if I don’t! I only meant to say women naturally would not because of their preferences and some because of social insecurity as well.

Though women are creative as per your view can they take it as their career? If yes, then certainly the percentage will be very low compared to men! Women would not prefer or rather they need not or it is not mandatory for them! Again no harm being non creative! It is just a statement of fact or statement of my view point

I don’t get what you’re trying to say. Are you saying that (a) the representation is already there and therefore I’m wrong or (b) the representation is not there because of xyz reasons?

Anyway, in your comment, you had said it. That’s the very point. There are barriers. It is up to men or women to break the social, economic, cultural barriers to be creators and thinkers. Barriers are there for each and everything. Think of men like Socrates, Buddha, Einstein, Gandhi etc. Didn’t they have barriers? The special ones break the barriers, not complain about them. Excuses are in abundance and they come in various names – opportunities, culture, brought up, education etc. The truth is always about one’s willingness, hunger and desire. The courage to sacrifice and the courage to let go. Men are by nature willing to experiment, be adventurous and take risks. Generally, women are NOT. I think women like to be in their comfort zones. Unwilling to break through. That could be the reason why we are seeing less and less women breaking through in these fields. Remember, women are a big proportion of the current white collar workforce. They are in all types of organisations. All that is missing is their appropriate representation in the fields I had mentioned.

You had posted me a question. My answer is, she may not be able to discover her talent if she is not special. Being special need not come from education, background, brought up etc. That’s inherent. It’s the ‘born vs made’ discussion. There are great writers who failed in school and there are school toppers who can write a decent paragraph.

And yes, your comment (not you) was stereotyped. When I wrote this post I was expecting two types of stereotypes responses. From men, comments ridiculing women. From women, comments defending their gender and complaining society and men. I got to see both. No offence was intended. It’s just that those are the type of responses I exactly did not want to see. I wanted to see some very objective, open-minded discussion where it is difficult to say if the commenter is a male or female.

P.S: I really love this discussion though!

It depends on what are you looking for most famous, or most talented. Plus, everyone is not as great as Buddha, plus, he was a guy. And Buddha went and lived in a jungle. To get famous, even if you rebel or leave your family, it doesn’t ensure you success. I’m sure men and women are equally talented in the creative field, but it depends on how their talents get discovered by someone else or themselves. It depends on how people are brought up. It depends on psychology. Everyone is not the same. There are few brave women who broke all social barriers, but there are so many women victimized by their own families due to sentimental blackmail or all kinds of emotional atyachaar(lol). It’s true and it happens till now. Men also have some barriers, but most men aren’t brought up to be dependent, so they easily break those barriers.

Answer me this, in a 19th century Victorian household, there’s a little boy and a little girl. Both have equal writing talents. The boy is sent to school and a girl is taught all table manners, and how-to-be-a-lady manners etc etc. She might even taught to write, but without education or awareness, do you really think she might able discover her talent(unless and otherwise she is super-intelligent)? When all her awareness is bound to lie on gowns in fancy boutiques?

and, I stereotyped? Why don’t you point out where?

For starters, I don’t research before I write my posts. Since most of the posts are my views, opinions, thoughts and observations, I just say them. By the way, research has no end.

Unfortunately, this has turned out to be a sexist discussion. I can assure you that I did not write the post from that perspective. The responses are truly stereotypical, including yours I must say.

I thought the responses could just be a rush of blood remarks, trying to prove a point, trying to prove someone wrong, belittling someone, ridiculing with sarcasm – I expected all that. And that’s what this has turned out to be.

Now, I answer your questions. I think the question was very clear unless we want to read between the lines. If someone asks me to list 10 most famous philosophers I’d never ask them since when. Now that I’ve provided clarity, you can seriously make those lists to find out about the women representation. Or if ’since when’ is such a key thing, let’s say 20th century and do the list. Just to reiterate the whole point, I’m convinced that the women representation is very very low. If you think otherwise, I’ll be interested in that argument of yours. All I was trying to find out is why it is so low?

Family support or opportunities are realities but they are also excuses. Gautam Buddha did not need family support or any support to attain buddhahood. It was just him and his enlightenment. Some of the those painters and inventors also got no support – be it family or government or anyone.

I absolutely agree and know that there are many female bloggers that ‘write philosophy and are very funny’. The moot point of my post is about overall representation. That’s the whole thing I’m talking about. I was looking certainly looking for an objective discussion. In fact, I was looking for more authentic responses from women.

Cheers. Thanks for dropping by

If you look in the past, you may find very few women in the top ten lists. That is because few women were encouraged, or helped or given the education and opportunity to achieve what they want. Since civilization started, the patriarchy thingie and the sexism as always been there, till this date and there are first of very few women who were/are conscious. Consciousness makes us aware and helps us succeed. Even now, there are many women who want to or even have made, but cannot or don’t want to succeed either because of their own egos or because they cannot due to less family support. Getting opportunity is not the only thing, one can succeed when they have some help.

Right now, I take the example of our own Bollywood. Do actresses get good roles to prove themselves? They just get the plain damsel in distress roles or a role which involves her wearing a mini-skirt and putting her arm around the hero(and posing for the promotional photo-shoot).

Plus, this comment thread is equally sexist and stereotyped.
Sanky, what do you mean by the following?

Creative fields demand critical thinking! Woman are not upto it yet and they do not wish for rather.

and Masti ki Paatshala, what do you mean by this?

Men are more Creative and Women are yet to surpass men. ‘Creative’ is more in mens blood, ‘Calmness’ is more in womens blood.

Well, I actually find it reverse stereotyping. Whichever art competition I have participated, I have seen more girls and lesser boys. In my classes(right from 1st standard), I have not seen a single guy who is good drawing. In my own English lit. class, not a single guy can beat a girl in writing a critical essay. In the singing competitions I go, there are more females than males and you are saying the women can’t think critically? Actually being creative has got nothing to do with being critical. I wonder what connection you make and how is creativity an opposite to calmness? Actually, creative people are more calm. And if I go by traditional stereotyping rules, men are more practical and women are more imaginative and so women are naturally more creative. And I wonder how you think that being a politician is like eating a cake.

You cannot connect fame to talent. That makes the whole thing pointless. And you all know the internets. Browse the web and you will know most people who have art, craft, design blogs are women. There are so many female bloggers who write philosophy and are also very funny.

I have feeling that you are all seeing it from only one point.

Jokes apart, I completely understand the context of your post Vj. Well the things that I wrote from my think tank is only after reading what you wrote and I wasn’t prepared already! I feel there are ground reasons related to the roles women prefer & that’s the reason for less popular creative women!

Well couple of interesting points about choices women make, being a politican, a fashion model or an holy nun! I think women prefer roles that requires plain and simple thinking and certainly not critical thinking! Well how much must a politician or a model has to think compared to a philosopher or an artist ? As an amateur artist in school days I myself had very less competition from my women counterparts, well in college as well! Well there might be exceptions though, but very very less

Well when we try to explain why not women in creative fields unfortunately men get pulled into the topic and it sounds like man vs woman topic and I was certainly trying to answer your question alone without diverting the context Unfortunately got diverted!

As Anil rightly mentioned less complicated, plain and soft thought process women have, compared to men! Creative fields demand critical thinking! Woman are not upto it yet and they do not wish for rather

I think the topic is being complicated and diverted. Let me channel it back. It’s a very simple question of representation of women in certain fields.

1. You may not prove me wrong because I have not given a theory or anything. I was just raising a question.

2. This is not a man vs woman topic. The topic is clearly on creative arts and the like.

3. I don’t expect all women to be excellent at these fields. Out of the billions and billions of women ever lived, how many famous female philosopher/artist can you name?

4. Don’t think from the Indian context alone.

If 40% of the urban workforce can be women, I wonder why this healthy percentage has not extended to painting, philosophy, inventions and stuff like that. It can’t be because of opportunities, culture and society, if you talk about women in general (not Indian women).

Women are free enough to become nuns but there are hardly any women philosophers. How does that sound? Women are free enough to participate and win beauty contests but there are no renowned women painters. Women are free enough to take key positions in politics and government but there are not as many women poets. Think about it.

I don’t want to argue or try to prove you wrong just for the sake of argument. Compared to men yes we do have very less women who are popular in creative fields. Atleast there are very less who have conquered my attention. Rather than browsing for names which are not popular because I do not know them I agree to the fact that box of women are smaller. The fact that you agreed with what I mentioned about Indian women one huge responsibility of a complex culture is answered.

Coming to the rest of the World, let me break the World into two halves, economically sound culture and weak culture. No question with poverty comes domination, crime & all sorts of challenges and life of women is undoubtedly miserable. Despite these conditions we still can expect men to shine in any one of your 10 areas just because they are men. Women? I can only expect they lead a descent life nothing more

By now atleast I have covered 50% of the globe. Next comes the most challenging economically strong culture, where I hope your questions will get directly answered. Of course freedom is independent on gender. Opportunities are abundant and no challenges at all until you grow up with your parents.

Then comes the most challenging teen age when boys can remain boys or become men without much noise while girls get a publicity when they become woman. I strongly believe that the choices a girl (Who does not have support from her parents) will make after 15, say after becoming a woman will largely be for a secured long term life. Very less time to think anything else. Most end up with a strong boy friend or a husband or a financially stronger career. Both are certainly not mandatory for a boy but without which a girl cannot stay virgin for long!

All roads lead to one place, the reason why population grows!

Though environments are different it’s just a different ball game for women in different environments. But certainly the game is on! The extent to which someone can try being popular, the same is the extent to which they have to be adjusting! I think clever women know already that survival is mandatory than popularity!

Men are certainly independent and free as a bird but women cannot cross boundaries else get fried! So is their thought process

You cannot compare apples (Men) with oranges (Women). IT’S A GIRL THING

As I said earlier, for the most part of history, the groundbreaking philosophers have all been men, and philosophy has always been a male genre.
Women had neither the education nor the time to pursue the life of the mind.

In modern times, especially in the past 200 years, women have made immense cultural contributions – but much more to literature and the arts than to philosophy.
When you find time, please read about this

“Ayn Rand: 1905-1982

Controversial Russian novelist and philosopher, a “radical capitalist” whose works are popular with young Tories (and Camille Paglia). Moved to US in 1924 and developed a philosophy of individualism she called Objectivism (“a philosophy for living on earth”). Best-known works: The Fountainhead (1935) and Atlas Shrugged (1957). Appeared in a Tobias Wolff memoir, and was played by Helen Mirren in a 1999 film about her life.”

I have read her novels – I liked it.

Granted it’s a man’s world and all that. Give me the name of one female philosopher or female artist. Out of the billions and billions of women ever lived, can you not name one famous female philosopher/artist?

I really liked the way you tried to make things clear using the box. As you say opportunities are abundant in this world immaterial of gender. Gone are the days when Men dominated the World. Women are equally achieving in their education & career. But the million dollar question is, Why aren’t there popular Women in creative fields?

Though everyone say Men and Women are equal, I strongly disagree. Men do not have boundaries but Women does have. A man decides for himself when to get married whereas the family decides for a girl. Love marriages are opposed for both the boy and the girl but difficulty is more at the girl side, Why? A boy can spend the whole day at his friend’s room and come home next day but not a girl. A boy can have a last minute outing but not a girl, she must have planned a week before.

Not just that, how about being pregnant in the peek of your career? How about moving to a different family of strangers including the one whom you sleep with? How about changing your office because your Husband is in Surat and you work in Chennai? How about missing an abroad opportunity just because a stranger wants to marry you in a month?

Girls are certainly free but Women are not! The moment they cross their 20’s I certainly believe they get the haunting feeling of moving to another World! How many of us have gone through that experience?

It seems I am going out of topic right? Well think again! How much free am I mentally and physically is directly proportional to my creativity. Women are free on papers but not in reality. The box of a Woman is much more smaller than a Man. She already knows how far she can go before even she starts. Have we ever heard of a man being raped? Women naturally feel insecure which restricts their thought process in every step. That’s how they grow or that’s how they have been brought up!

Atleast that’s what I believe!